Since April this year I’ve been hosting the monthly Filmmakers Meet-up at Hubud, a bamboo coworking space in Ubud, Bali. The event itself is open to anyone and attracted both the resident and traveling filmmakers from around the world who happen to be on the island at that particular time. We’ve discussed a range of topics from Legal & Ethical Filmmaking in Indonesia to Crowdfunding to last month’s Using Video As A Force For Good with the inspiring filmmaker Jacqui Hocking, which you can read about here.
This is an edited transcript of our conversation via Skype.
Nadia: Hi Kylie, thanks for joining us. This is everyone, not everyone is a filmmaker but we’re all interested to learn about Lean Filmmaking. So, the first thing I’d like to ask is what is Lean Filmmaking?
Kylie: Yes, that’s a good question. 🙂 I come from a very traditional filmmaking background. I’m a writer, producer, director. And my brother is an agile software developer. After I made my micro-budget feature film about a decade ago, it was quite let just say a traumatic experience. And after that my brother said to me, ‘Oh, I’m working with this agile software development… and it sounds like this agile stuff can work with films!’ And I went, ‘That is absolutely ridiculous. You don’t understand film industry. It would never work that way.’ But because we’re siblings, he’s just kept wearing me down… wearing me down. And then a couple of years later it’s literally like it has transformed how I think about things.
There are these other incredible industries like the Lean Startup, Lean Manufacturing, Agile Software, Design Thinking, UX… All doing incredible things that we as filmmakers can learn from because now the technology has caught up and we can kinda do some of those things as well. We’ve combined those skills to come up with a whole new re-imagined the way that you can make films. So, it’s about the process of making films.
Nadia: That sounds great in theory but what does it like in practice?
Kylie: Funny you should ask. While I was waiting for your call I just did a little diagram. But before I get into explaining what this is… Basically Lean Filmmaking is a philosophy. It’s a set of values. And it’s about how we do the work and how we work with people. The 4 key things are:
- It’s a cross-functional, multi-discipline team that is together from the very beginning — A core small team.
- We put story first before production values. So, we’re trying to get the story right by doing lo-fi versions of the film until we add production values-that can always be added later.
- Also, to do this you do it in cycles. So, we slowly build up. Instead of doing a draft script we try to get to the fidelity of filming as quickly as possible and do draft films. This is where the technology helps us because it’s really cheap, so, now we can just shoot stuff on our phone, we can shoot stuff really cheaply, we can edit really quickly.
- And finally we’re bringing the audience really early. So, with these cheap versions, these lo-fi versions we try to connect with the audience straight away. Get their feedback. And then adjust.
How’s that looks like with the diagram.
If we start here… At the beginning of the process you form your Squad, which has all the skills that you need to make a film. For example, we’re making a feature at the moment and we have a writer director, an editor, a cinematographer and two actors. It’s really important that the actors are a part of your team. And myself as a producer. So, that’s your Squad.
Once we form our Squad and we determine what our story is and a concept, we then make a lo-fi version of it and that’s the whole – as close as we can – to the length. Short films are much easier obviously. But for a feature, we’re trying to get it to 70 / 80 / 90 minutes length in a rough form, then we show it to an audience. And then we adjust based on what we’ve learned. And then we do it all again. And then at some point we’re done.
Now, how do we decide when we’ve done enough cycles? Well, this is very similar to how films are currently made. You run out of money. The team falls apart. It’s just a shit film and you give up. You abandon it. Or the bonus of doing it this way is you might actually find that your audience like a more lo-fi version of the film, so you don’t have to add lots of extra stuff that would have cost you more money and time.
You do have to let go of your ego of this potentially going to look amazing for your showreel, but if it’s connected to your audience… So, you can finish earlier and it also means you can make more informed decisions about spending more time, energy and resources on something that’s clearly not working.
Nadia: Have you or anyone from your meet-up group actually applied this filmmaking technique?
Kylie: Yes. We’ve been actively applying this for the last 3 years since the meet-up group has been going. I mean the whole foundation of our group is based on testing this model. No one else that we can find is really going this hard at this kind of idea. There’s lots of people doing really cool stuff in the space. You know, there’s lots of people working on different parts of technology, you know, all sorts of interesting things are happening.
We’ve spent a couple of years doing it on short films. And then we’re just like, ‘Oh God, you know…’ Before we started doing it and it was just literally an idea, a theory, an experiment, people were like, ‘Well, it’s not going to work.’ Then we’re like, ok, it’s just an experiment. Then we tried it on short films and it kills, it was amazing, it was so fantastic! Like, OK, so it works for short films. And then people were like, ‘Well, of course it works for short films. It’s a short film. You can never do it for a feature film.’
Now, we’re like, ok, we’re going to stop making short films now. That’s fine. We’ve validated that. Let’s do it with features.
Last year we had two Squads where I coached them through the process. And we kinda package it more like a development tool. I’m not quite sure what the development time is in Bali for feature films… In Australia it takes normally – in a traditional round – it takes about 7 years to develop a film from the scriptwriting to getting financing. That’s not shooting it. It could take another 2 years to shoot it and then go to Post. This is just the development to get the funding to actually make it and write the script.
Well, that sounds really too long. I’m sure we can improve on that. Let’s try do it in 3 months… around day jobs!
Alright, let’s see if we can do that. Both of these two Squads they had high level concepts for their feature films, like just a basic idea: one is a sci-fi film, sci fi romantic drama; and one was like a contemporary film noir. And then we went through this process and in 3 months they did two and a half cycles. They kinda got bogged down a little bit, they’re trying to do too much.
At the end of 3 months they had 2 full length 90 minutes lo-fi versions of their films. Obviously they had all these momentum because they had all these… You know, you need cast, they had to find people, they had trailers, they had short film versions, they’ve spoken to audiences, they’ve done screenings… All of these stuff just happens really really quickly.
Both of them had gone on to then… One decided to then go down the traditional path and do crowdfunding, and then do it kinda 16 days shoot and they’re in Post now. And the other team decided to keep going with cycles. So, they’re still going through cycles. I’m not quite caught up with them for the last month or so, so I’m not quite sure where they’re at.
But if you read about it – that’s actually on the blog an interview that I did with them – Just how much a lot of these limits we place on ourselves. They’re artificial limits, because they’re limits that we’ve been told ‘That’s the way!’ But now we have technology and we can do things way faster, which we really have to change the way we do it.
For example, I do workshops with people which I just ran one on the weekend. And it’s really about trying to have the paradigm shift about how quickly we can do stuff. And literally in 90 minutes I have people make a short video, like a one take video on their phone with people they never work with before, with no script, starting from zero. In 3 cycles. And it just happens like that. You don’t even realise it.
In the beginning of the workshop I said, ‘Ok, we’re going to make a short video now.’ They were like, ‘What?!’ I had to trick them to get them there. Everyone will be too scared to come if I told them they’re going to have to make a short video. So, I tricked them, saying, ‘Learn about creativity.’ And then… ‘We can learn about creativity by using our craft and make a film.’ But you do it in this process and it’s all time boxed, so they’re only thinking about the next two minutes. Guide them through the process. And at the end they’ve done 3 versions of the film. And you know what…
Some of them were really great! Some of them were pretty shit, but you know what… You have no excuse then, because you’re like, well, imagine what I can do in a day. I did this in 90 minutes. What if I’ve spent a whole day. What would happen then?
Nadia: Ok, you’ve talked about saving time, how about saving money? Do you know how much did the two feature film Squads spent on their budget?
Kylie: Yes, I do. Actually the film noir that then went on to the traditional production, their development budget was zero. It was a couple of snacks. Like it was just some food, it was sweat equity. So, actually what we’re trying to suggest… It’s much easier to raise money when you can demonstrate that you actually have something, and that you’ve got people involved, and you’ve already done a lot of hard work.
So, if you’re prepare to putting a sweat equity up front, you’re going to have far more leverage and you’ll be able to either A) Raise more money, or B) Determine that you’re willing to keep putting in that sweat equity.
In the end, they shot their film, they did two rounds of crowdfunding. The total budget was AU$ 29,000. And the other team, I think they came at about AU$ 8,000.
How are we trying to save money with this is you only add this specific things when you have demonstrated that they really really important to your audience. To your audience, so that’s where it’s important.
David: Is that mean you’ll end up with a film of a particular style? Like, do the films that come out of this process tend to have a look, a lo-fi look?
Kylie: No, I don’t think so. And the reality is if you had money you could totally use this process if you had a big budget. We just haven’t tested that. I mean that’s an assumption.
Also, these two films that came out last year, one is a black and white noir. They shot it in 4:3 ratio because, you know, art. And then the other one is like a hand held shaky romantic science fiction film that is super festivally. Like, ‘I’m going to play it at Sundance kinda vibe.’ You couldn’t have more different styles.
And one wrote a script. They had 4 weeks to do a whole cycle. And one of them was like, ‘It’s noir. It’s about the words. So, we’re writing a script.’ I’m like, ‘Great! You still have 3 weeks to do that. Like, the whole thing and shoot it.’ And they shot it in two days.
And the other one was like it’s all improvised. So, they’re completely different.
What it does mean though is… Well, the current way of doing it is you make up a script and then you feed a budget accordingly, right? What we’re suggesting is postpone… Like, work within your constraints. Try to put off spending money until you know what you have and who your audience is. Determine the size of your audience.
For example, a black and white contemporary noir that is a tiny audience, my friend. That is tiny. So, don’t spend a lot of money making that film because it’s going to be really hard to sell. The science fiction romantic drama has a broader audience.
Here, I’ve done another diagram.
I find a venn diagram is always very handy to explain things. What we’re suggesting is… Here is your idea for the film that you want to make. And you still have to have a creative vision and you still have to have a story to tell. In fact, it’s super important because you’re not going to be able to hide behind production values.
And then, you’re going to then try to find your audience. You’re going to try seek out who they are. And here are your constraints, which is how much sweat equity, how much time, do you have access to gear, do you have access to great locations, what can you access?
And in the middle, we’re trying to find this little sweet spot where all overlap. So, you can see here. You might not be able to make every single part of your vision, but hopefully there’ll be enough heart in there that will connect with these other two bits.
Nadia: I kept hearing ‘finding your audience first’, so how do you find the audience for the cycles?
Kylie: You know what, it’s really fucking hard. And guess what? In this process you get to do all the hard stuff first. You don’t get to do the glamorous fun production stuff, which we’re all really concentrate on, and it’s really exciting, and look at the result, ‘We’ve made this great film’. And then you’re like, ‘Oh, we’ve made this great film. I cannot get a distributor. I don’t know who’s going to buy this. I don’t know where I’m going to sell it.’
You know, making a film is only half of the process. The other half is trying to get people to see the film. Now, if you don’t want people to see your film and you just want to make a film for yourself. 100% that’s OK with me. And you’ve got rich uncle or something, who wants to fund that, or you’re going to fund that yourself. Fantastic.
I find that most people who want to make films, want people to see their films. So, if you’re going with that idea, it’s like, ‘Who are these people?’
And the great news is if you can find your audience even if you don’t end up self distributing, you are in such a better position when you talk to a distributor. Because you can actually talk from a place of knowledge and believe me, they’re struggling to find audiences.
At the moment, making a film is not the challenge. Pretty much I’m confident that all of you in that room there can make a film. But can you find an audience?
There’s so much content. Finding an audience now is the hard bit. Because distribution has been democratised. It’s free to distribute globally via the internet. And the means of production are close to zero. So, anyone can do it and do it to the world. That means there’s a lot of content.
Specifically to answer your question about finding an audience, it depends on your film and what you’re trying to make, and your message. And then you have to go out and try to find those people. Where do they live? What do they do? Where are they hanging out?
If you take for example the film that we’re currently working on. We’ve got two female actresses as our lead. And we’ve kinda narrowed it down the subject matter and the topic that we’re interested in exploring. We’re interested in exploring this idea about… We just don’t think there’s many characters women on screen that are child free by choice. You know, there’s just doesn’t seem to be that many representation of women who are happy but they don’t have children.
How can we turn that into a story? And how can we make sure that we’re A) Being authentic and B) That that’s actually a thing. Just because I think it’s a thing, does that mean it’s a thing?
We start with a group of inner circle of people that we know. And then we do 30-minute in person interviews, in a structure. We’re trying to do in a structured way where we can kinda correlate some data. We’re trying to get some data points. So we ask the same questions. We’re trying to see if there’s common themes.
In the last week, in 3 days we found 7 women to talk to. Really easily. It was actually not that hard. And you’ve got to talk to them, you do your interviews, and then you come back to the Squad and you see if there’s any common themes.
You adjust your interviews, trying to find more people. And you’re trying to get referrals from those people to other people. And then, those people refer people. And now suddenly you’re out of your friendship circle and you’re talking to strangers.
Also, we had a meeting at a restaurant the other day and a feminist meet-up happened to be happening. Fantastic! We just went over there and like ‘Hi, we’re making a film. Is anyone willing to talk to us?’ And we’ve got email. Like, you just start seeing things all over the place. Are there forums? Guess what? There’s a whole bunch of Facebook groups that are dedicate to people who are child free. Can we talk to the organisers of that?
It’s no secret. It’s just hard work. And it’s just confronting because you have to put yourself out there. Here’s a good thing though… You’re getting judged on something – because people are scared of getting judged, particularly in film because it’s the final film when you can’t change it, right? People normally don’t see it, the audience doesn’t see to right at the end and you can’t do anything about it. Where as with this, because we’ve got our cycles. We know it’s shit. We know it’s the shit version that’s why we’re getting feedback now so we can improve it.
We don’t have to be defensive about getting feedback. In fact, once you start getting feedback, you’re like, ‘How did I ever live in this vacuum of never getting feedback?’
Veronica: Have you found that thinking about the audience that early on in the creative process could or has interfere with the director and writers artistic process and their creativity? Like, I feel like sometimes when you’re creating art if you think about the ending, when you think about who if anyone going to see this, that’s like messes with where the art is actually coming from inside you. Do you know what I mean?
Kylie: Yes, 100%. I think there’s two different things. There’s art as ego, as in,‘It’s my vision. You are following my vision. And it’s my art.’ It’s not the process for those people. That’s not going to work. But guess what? The traditional industry is set up for you. Go make the film in the traditional way. It’s awesome, it’s set up for you.
How this process works around that, is that it’s a non hierarchical structure. So the director is not in charge. All of the decision in a cross-functional team, and that’s why I have this very small team… For example, all these meetings that we’re doing with interviews and everything… The editor is out doing interviews. The cinematographer’s helping us with story. Like, we’re all working on the story.
Now, that doesn’t not to say that you need to have those skills. And once we get more into the cycle obviously the editor will be editing. The cinematographer will be shooting. The actress will be acting. But they’re all involved in this process. So everyone is aware of the decision that’s made. And there’s a whole bunch of tools, and meetings, and planning, and post-it noting, that help bring all these stuff to the fore.
I’ve also going to say as well that this process is super creative! It’s not cookie cutter, it’s not color by numbers, it’s really hard to tell a story, it’s hard to make a film. We’re just trying to reduce some of the risks. And actually I’m finding it super creative because constraint can really help us.
And when we talk to the audience we’re not asking them for solutions. The audiences job is not to provide us solution. That’s our job as creatives. Their job is to reflect back to see whether or not what we’re trying to say is connecting with them. For example when you write a script, you can make a whole bunch of assumptions in there, but everyone interprets in a different way. And even when you make a film that you’re like ‘Oh, that’s super clear. That’s super clear that’s our meaning of the film.’ But when you show an audience, they might miss it. So, we’re just trying to affirm that.
But yes, it is a paradigm shift about this traditional idea of hierarchy and ego and… I would just say that lots of other creatives are already doing this. If you’re a stand up comic, you’re getting instant feedback. If you’re a musician and you’re playing in a band in front of audience, if you’re in theater and you’re doing a show, your audience is right there.
It’s just because the technology for film has always separated us from the audience, but now we can bring that back in closer. If you look at YouTubers, they’re doing this, right? They’re not calling it this but this is what they’re doing. They’re making a short, they’re making something and they’re getting feedback from the audience. They can tell when they stop watching. They can tell how long they’re engage. They can see from comments. They get thumbs up. They get subscribers. And then they improve. If you look at big YouTubers and you go back to their first video, they’re shit, right? They didn’t instantly have 4 million subscribers.
Now, some traditional filmmakers may say that’s not art. I would strongly disagree. If you’ve got 4 million people watching you everyday, it seems like you’re saying something that’s pretty important to people. So, I guess it’s kinda what story you want to tell.
Does that answer your question?
Veronica: Yes, totally. It’s really interesting. I feel like your method also serves the traditional studio system as well. Because what you’re saying is a great way to get funding from like big studios. Like if you come to a studio with an audience already and showing what you’re going to do that’s when they want to give you money to keep it going and make something bigger, you know. So, it’s really smart.
Kylie: I’m not sure the big studios would agree, they’re really only in the franchise business. But I think maybe an Amazon or a Netflix, they would be maybe interested.
Veronica: Yes, totally.
Nadia: Any other questions?
David: With each of the cycles are you remaking the whole film and improving production values every time? Or are you just identifying parts of the film that need working and remaking those and then how does that affect things like continuity?
Kylie: Yeah, we don’t really care about continuity. Continuity is the least of our issue. Seriously, if people are worry about your continuity, you are really in big time trouble. And because we’re just trying to do lo-fi.
Basically the first cycle, if you go back to the blog that has the short film version, where you can kinda see how the cycle progress. The first version is like an improvey… It’s got stills that kinda ‘This is the location. Here’s the still of it.’. I guess really rough. But guess what? We are so film literate, we’re actually extrapolate a lot of information from that.
There are two parts… I’ve made the diagram looks super simple. But there are actually two parts of the cycle. There’s a whole bunch of cycles at the beginning where you’re trying to get your story at your audience to see if there’s connection. And in that, you do not want to spend any additional money or time or energy on production values. And also, as soon as we spend money on production values, we get really attach to it and we really don’t want to throw it out. Like, it’s really hard to throw it out.
That’s also why I don’t work with people who happen at this stage because no one really demonstrated to me… Because if you’ve been working on a script for 5 years, you’re going to struggle to throw that out. It’s really tough when you’ve invested a lot of time in it.
We try to keep it really lo-fi for as long as possible. And once we’ve got a channel where we can see that we’re finding an audience and it’s working for them. That’s when we move into a different kind of cycle, where we start trying to increase the production values and it’s more about market fit.
So, yes, we don’t want a shit looking film. We want it to look as good as it possibly can given our constraint. But the reality is the audiences forgive way more on a production level if they engage with the story. I think you can have both, but if I had to choose, I would choose story over production values, every time.
Nadia: Right, I also read on your blog that you should start with a team, not with a script. Actually, it’s recommended that you don’t come with a script but you try to find your team first.
Kylie: Here’s the thing with finding your Squad first and it’s working within your constraints. When you write a traditional script and then you’re trying to crew up and you’re trying to cast for example. Well, we completely do casting in a different way. You know, just to really mess with your heads. 😉
What’s the point of writing a big script and having all these casts, and then you have to find the perfect actors to fit into these mystical roles that you created, and you’re always going to be struggling around budget and time and schedule and everything else. Like, it’s so hard.
What we’ve done in our Squad and what we suggest you do… We’ve got two actors who are on our Squad. We cast them in this workshop that we did. We literally cast them in 3 hours. They came to the workshop and we saw if they could work in this make-a-short-video in 90 minutes thing. Like, ‘Excellent! Do you want to come be in our feature film and we’re going to make the entire film based on your skill sets?’
So, one of the actress, she speaks 5 languages. Well, that sounds great, how can we use that to our advantage? Another one is a fantastic dancer and does yoga. Well, that sounds interesting. And then we’re going to use your skill sets and how you work and create it around you. So, casting is done. We’re not spending anymore time on casting.
As we get further along in the cycles, we probably need more actors. But for our central story, we don’t waste any more time and energy on casting. We’re working with our constraints, we know who these people are, you know, we already got them cast. So, we’re going to make something for them.
Nadia: Can we apply this process to documentary?
Kylie: Absolutely. In fact documentary is way easier. Look, in some ways smart documentary-makers are already doing this. There’s a fantastic case study written by documentary producer whom I interviewed on our last meet-up. The film is called “Small Is Beautiful”. The website is smallbeautifulmovie.com. I think it has a blog and he has written a whole case study about how they did this for a documentary.
They had a whole bunch of tools… It’s about the tiny house movement. They’re Australian guys but they shot in Portland (USA) because they realised that’s where their audience was. And they have shared all of their financials. They’ve shared how they worked out how big their audience was, their entire self distribution strategy, how they did their launch and all their income.
Because with documentaries normally they’re coming from a perspective of social justice or shining a light on a subject that feel like they need to be seen, but the audience normally is much more clear. And actually there is no excuse if you’re making a documentary to not be finding your audience first.
And also, what’s great in their case study, they did exactly that and once again, the audience doesn’t have to be that big. They just need to be really passionate. So, they built their audience of 3,000 people on an email list. I think 3,000 people seems really achievable. Not talking hundreds of thousands people on an email list, 3,000 people on an email list that allow them… They had a budget of $60,000 and I think they’ve already made that back and I think they’ve made like $60,000 in profit. Just based on that 3,000 email list.
And when they tried to find a distributor they just couldn’t find a good deal. And so they were like, ‘You know what, we’re just better off doing it ourselves. We already got the audience. And we can make more money… We’ll sell less but we’ll make more money.’ And that’s what they did. It’s all in the case study. It’s fantastic. It’s really super exciting. We now have the internet, right? We can measure all this stuff. We should not be pretending that we don’t have the internet anymore.
Nadia: Speaking of money, I saw the topic for your last meet-up you talked about making money from indie films. So, how do you make money?
Kylie: Yes, so that case study really goes into a lot of detail on how to make money. Here’s the kinda punch line and once again, I do this quite a bit with our meet-ups is I kinda trick people into coming.
So, the way to make money from indie films is to find your audience first. That’s how you make money from any films. And keep your budget really low. If you know how big your audience is, you can kinda make some assumptions about that. And then you can not spend more money than what you think the market there is for it. Then that’s a success and you’ve made money.
Unfortunately, there’s no easy… once again, it’s kinda of a bit of catch 22. It’s kinda like when I did a meet-up around like, ‘How to get your film into Sundance.’ And then everyone came, and it’s like, ‘You’ll never gonna get your film into Sundance. There’s all these other great film festivals. And you should stop focusing on Sundance as the one thing that you can do to prove your success with filmmaker.’
It’s great to have aspiration for that, but let’s be realistic and let’s look at the facts. If you take Sundance for example. Not a single Australian films screen in the Sundance this year. Not a feature, not a short. And guess what? In Sundance, their international program in competition is 12 films, from the world. Sundance is an American film festival, they’re mostly interested in American films. And guess how many entries they get in the features? 6,000 entries. And the thing is you can go, ‘Yeah, but most of them are shit.’ Well, that’s actually true. But guess what? 600 or so of them are actually amazing. And they had to choose 12.
By all means have aspiration, but do your research. Come at it from not the hype and the hope, but just get real and you know, make sure that when you’re determining how your success looks for you, that you’re just clear about what that could be.
It feels like a downer, but I see that as positive because I’m like, ‘Take back control into your own hands and be real.’ And you can control it and you can do it yourself. Instead of giving your power over to a festival or a distributor or someone else you can do it for yourself.
Nadia: Last question anyone?
Veronica: Can you talk about some of your favorite key filmmaking tools to do this. Like cameras and editing, you know like iPhones… What have you seen people do when they’re making these really cheap films?
Kylie: I just once again want to clarify the difference between cheap and lean. Lean is actually about using less resources and not being wasteful. So, you can use expensive gear, but once again don’t let that stop you.
I just literally do not care what you shoot on or what you’re editing on. I do not care about gear. I care about what you have access to. If you have access to your phone, then use your phone. If you have access to DSLR, use a DSLR. If you have access to a RED, maybe use a RED, but man, they’re a pain in the ass.
And look, there are films being made all the time that are using really interesting techniques. I mean it’s great for a marketing hook. So, obviously “Tangerine” got heaps of press about shooting on an iPhone. Just fyi though, they did spend a crap ton of money on post production. And they did it in a very traditional way. So, that’s not a cheap film in our term. But that film was still about $120,000, most of it was in post.
Once again, that’s excellent marketing on their part. And the zeitgeist, this also a great film I think it’s called “Unfriended” where they shot it on a web camera. They actually attached go-pros and they did it live. So it was in real time. But they actually used go-pros just because of the quality. So, go-pros on top of the laptops. And then all of the actors were in different rooms, but they meant to be in different houses, and they shot all live. Like, I find that cool. Someone has already made a Snapchat film (“Sickhouse”), a feature, using Snapchat.
So, if you can find something interesting and you can use it to your marketing advantage and it’s interesting to you. Fine. And if you can find someone who’s willing to watch it. Like, go for it. Or just make YouTube videos. That’s also awesome.
Nadia: Thanks Kylie! Thank you so much for your time. And I hope to catch you when I’m back in Melbourne early next year.
Kylie: I’d love that. Thanks everyone!